Wednesday, 28 September 2011

Conversations with the Doctor Part II...

I was unsure whether Dr Bhagat had seen the lie of self, and asked the direct question..

  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • I need to ask you this question my friend, and although i've asked it many a time, I need to be sure to get this 100% confirmed for me. Here goes..

      Do you exist?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Yes
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • How so?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Even when peeling away all the layers, something remains
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • what is it that remains?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • A sense of I.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • what's that like?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Its like the Command centre or Controller , I guess. Its as if I am a building with many rooms, each room having a different function. Silly explanation but that's how I imagine it
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • and how do you know this core controller is real, and not just another thought?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • I don't. I no longer believe one can control thought. To me that's a game. Like seeking or stopping seeking.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Yeah exactly, thoughts just happening, but no thinker. Just thinking.

      If you believe in this core controller, I think you need to examine it further my friend..
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Ok, Rikki, might we examine this together please? ' I think you need to examine it further my friend..' Who might be the 'you examining 'it' further, Sir?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Let's not put a label on that, let's look at what's at the very core where you believe there is an 'I'.

      How do you know that to be true?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • It remains constant. Always watching
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • There is a constant, there is watching, how do you know it's you?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Ok. Its the observer. I have indiviuated it to me, I guess
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • exactly. so is it you, or life living itself?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • U r right Sir. Its the movement of life. But I incoporate it in my witnessing of my daily life.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Do you do this, or is it just happening?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki- the observer watches the actions and reactions of my ego. I think my ego responds to the relative world and bases its actions on memory. No?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • So the ego is observed, is the ego you?

      Is the observer?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • The ego is part of my relative self that allows me to function in the relative world as a cardiologist. However, I must admit I am increasingly aware of its fickleness.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Yeah, it definitely exists. But is it truly who you are?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Yes and No. Am not sure how to answer this! Help me out...
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • good, you can only answer this by looking and seeing for yourself what's real my friend.

      Explain how yes and no...
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Well, if its part of my relative self.. Then I take ownership. As the witness/observer it forms the entirety
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • If it's you, really you, then does it control things like your breathing?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No. Those are autonomic activities controlled spontaneously by the physical brain. The ego is also part of the brain but the conscious brain.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Of course, it exists. I'm questioning it's validity as you, how do you know it is?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • I can watch my breathing and make a conscious effort to control it. So there a controller. This I take to be part of the witness.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Can you control thought?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Yes Sir. One can 'stop' a thought or resist it.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • do you create them though, every thought you have?

      How do you stop them?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Some are spontaneous and others are consciously derived.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • how do the spontaneous ones come to be if you didn't create them?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Just need to rush to hospital to see someone with chest pain. Back ASAP. Please let's continue. Need to get to bottom of this
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Ok my friend, no problem.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Not sure the spontaneous ones. From the subconscious?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Some thoughts are reflexive, others derived from need, desire and attachment or motive. Others are deliberated and considered.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • But is it you creating them, or are they just happening?

      Let's leave where you think they come from for a second..
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • On closer reflection, I guess they are just happening. But they are happening as a result of a larger event unfolding (as I see it). Perhaps it is my ego that feels that I am determining a small element of it. Some form of 'directed' will.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Ok mate, better, but see how you go into theory? Could be this, could be that?

      What we focus on is what we see and know to be real. That's key. That was we don't drift off into the mind, into thoughts, and distract ourselves.

      This is incredibly simple, but it needs pure focus on what's actually happening, so we can look at it with direct observation and get a proper grip on what's true.

      So you say they are just happening, cool. Is a 'me' making them happen, do you need to control them?

      Remember, no theory. Just direct observation..
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No, there is no me. They are happening.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Awesome, what's that like? Explain a little more..
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • There is a dichotomy, Rikki. One the one hand, it is a great 'relief' that life just happens. On the other (my mind tripping in I guess), asks, what the hell, then, why bother. E.G robbing a bank, committing a crime etc - its all just happening
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • "On the other (my mind tripping in I guess), asks, what the hell, then, why bother. E.G robbing a bank, committing a crime etc"

      Is this just another thought? Is it really you?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki- you are harsh! Yes, I guess its just a thought. At this stage, it seems there is no 'me'
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • All this really is Kiran, is a tearing down of the mystery of life and taking a real look at what's true. That's what this whole thing turns on.

      Direct observation of what's true. You got lost in thought, so has the world. What you're doing now is just looking without the theory, and alas, there is no 'me'.

      That simple observation, that lie, that illusion. Was there ever a you Kiran?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • I guess not, Sir. Me has turned out to be an accumulation of neuronal firing,memory and concepts.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Aha! See what happens when you look? So simple right?

      Do you exist Kiran?

      Have you ever?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No, Sir. Just a thought. Put together. By whom?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • No identity. Just thoughts. Just emotions. Just space.

      No me, or mine, or self..
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • No identity. Just thoughts. Just emotions. Just space.

      No me, or mine, or self..
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • So no blame, shame. No initiator.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Is that the reality or another thought?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki. You are a rogue. Indeed , its a thought. Ok, its my turn. So if there is no Kiran/Rikki. Why are we different?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • I'm just pointing you to what's true my friend.

      We have different thoughts, memories etc, but at the very core there is no self, no 'me', no controller, just life. Just life living itself..

      Has there ever been a you Kiran?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No Rikki. In that context, no.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • So what is there?

      Do you exist?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No 'I' don't. What is there? Nothing. Just an unfolding of life.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Did you ever exist Kiran?can you see it as a mistaken identity your whole life?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • I see it Rikki. But wonder how one deals with moral and ethical issues thereafter? I have tons of this daily herein Africa
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Do the legwork my friend.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

      How does it feel to be liberated?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • The self is an reflection of thought, memory, internal and externally derived concepts. It is a changing and rather amorphous collection of states- all transient and prone to change at will.

      I have no idea what it feels like to be liberated. I do not consider myself so.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • 'Do the legwork my friend.' - Oh yes?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • and who changes them at will?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No 'one' . It changes
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • So how do you know this self you claim is there, is truly you?

      What evidence of it is there?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • It is in name only Rikki. Nothing more. There is no evidence for it. The brain is very easy in accepting its own explanations
  • Rikki Winchester
    Rikki Winchester
    • aha, so what is there?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Nothing. Just a movement of thought - in and out. That is how I feel
    • apologies for the delays in reply. I am in between consulting patients!
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • no problem.

      Could you describe this a little more please, it's sounding like you're seeing no self as a fiction. And would like to clarify..
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • No - not fiction. Just a 'story'. Woven with the rest of my environment. It no longer seems separate. All intertwined. No personal 'self' is what I am now 'seeing'.

      • Rikki Winchester

        Rikki Winchester
        • and how does that feel?
      • Kiran Bhagat

        Kiran Bhagat
        • There is weight removed in one sense. However, the trouble I have is working out how to deal with patients in this way! Truly. Because I cant be telling them that its all a 'story' - as true as it is. In addition my actions and reactions to patients, public and practitioners has begun to change.

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