Tuesday, 13 September 2011

Conversations with the doctor..

  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Hello Rikki, we never did complete out conversation! You seem to have opted out of the forum?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Out of the facebook group you mean?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Y
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Yeah it's very busy in there, and I was working on a huge forum thread. Had around 44,000 views and around 4,500 posts so that was.

      How things?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Wow. 'Things' are ok. Just keen on taking up the thread (which seems an age ago). You left me suspended in disbelief! Was not sure how to resolve your words.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Ok Kiran, well I'm glad you contacted me. Where are you right now in terms of 'this'?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Still a little perplexed, Rikki. Trying - perhaps too hard - to understand the word enlightened or awakened.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Ok, I find enlightenment to be a little misleading. This isn't some level 2 Mario upgrade, or unlocking Jedi mind powers.

      It's a simple, subtle shift. A seeing of what's actually real.

      Tell me Kiran, is there a you?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Yes - my perception is that there is a me. One that changes but still a sense of me
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • How can you tell it's 100% you? Im not doubting a self exists, but is it DEFINITELY you?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Difficult one but I can only answer it clinically (I am a physician). In a patient that has had a stroke affecting their sense of who they are, the loss of this area results in a loss of identity. This extrapolates, for me, into argument, that without this part of the brain - the self is lost. Similarly for Alzhemers, some parkison's and senile dementia
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Ok, I see your reason for answering from this perspective, but I'd like an answer from direct experience. Is there a 'you' running life, or is life just being?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Yes, Sir. There is - my actions seem determine by an agglomeration of memories from the past (experience, learning etc). They determine what action I will take in running my life
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • So basically 'you' are a agglomeration of memories?

      For now, let's call that a theory. And using that theory i'm going to assume that with different experiences and things learned, your 'true' self would be different, no?

      I'm not saying thoughts don't exist, that would simply be not true. I'm asking you to look at the nature of them. Are they YOUR thoughts, are are they just thoughts?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Sorry Rikki - I was called away to see a patient having severe angina. Want to talk about this later. In answer, yes, the accumulation of memory seems to determine my 'mindset'. Is this not for you too?

      They are my thoughts - to whom other might they 'belong'. No one else claims to have them.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • No problem, I understand.

      Ok, so yeah. Thoughts exist, we know that. How could we function without them right?

      And yeah, we all have memories, everyone has different experiences. On the surface I suppose, this would be the end of the story. These experiences shape who we are, that's generally taken as true, right?

      But. BUT. Is this really true? Just because thoughts exist, does it mean that's who we are?

      I have thoughts. They enter the space. But are they really mine? Even thoughts about 'me', are just that. Thoughts.

      They enter into the space, but they aren't mine. They just are. Yes they exist, but there is no identity to them, they just come and go.

      Even when the thought 'I am happy' arises, maybe even accompanied by a happy feeling, that's all it is. That's the reality of it, right?

      Someone could watch a scary film, and be terrified, and another, not be affected by it. Let's look at that for a sec...same film, 2 different reactions. So it would seem that it's being perceived through a mental filter. Something is between what is being seen ie the film, and just the pure seeing of it.

      That layer seems to be the layer of thought, and the identification with them. Taking them as true. Do you see this?

      All we are is space, and thought enters that space. They come and go. The difference between liberated, and being under the illusion is not seeing the reality of this.

      Not seeing thought and emotion as just that, and creating/believing in an identity that is purely mind made.

      Life is. It's always living through us. No one controls it, it just is.

      You don't control your heart do you, or your insulin levels? It just is. Life living.

      The basic delusion comes when we identify with a fictitious self that doesn't exist. Everything else does, but the core truth is, a self isn't.

      Can you see this as true?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki, I hope you are there! I am sorry, I had to go back to the patient. Who then had to be admitted with his 'perceived' problem.

      'Someone could watch a scary film, and be terrified, and another, not be affected by it. Let's look at that for a sec...same film, 2 different reactions. So it would seem that it's being perceived through a mental filter. Something is between what is being seen ie the film, and just the pure seeing of it.' To my mind Rikki, the difference between the two reactions is based on the different memories of the two. One, e.g. may have seen the movie or have an outlook of no fear, the other may have an anxious nature (based on their experiences in childhood).

      I do not control my heart. This body is indeed largely automated. Granted. Is the mind too? A reflexive part of the body , albeit more sophisticated, reacting to the environment based on its prior memory.

      Even as a very left brained 'person' I can see that what we make our selves out to be is based on perception/concepts - which is illusionary. How does one move beyond this, having understood it? Esp in my profession - people have pain, hunger, trauma (indeed, all bodily) but telling them its all part of a 'fictious self' seems duplicitous.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Let's start with the fact that they all exist. Thoughts and emotions exist, we know this to be true.

      The illusion comes when we believe in a self that is a mind made fiction.

      To move beyond this (great question by the way) is too see the illusion working. Peek behind the curtain if you will and see it masquerading.

      It's no good believing what i say to be true, or even accepting it. You need to see it, that's where you'll break identification with this illusionary self.

      Thoughts exist, they just aren't your thoughts. They just are. Same with emotions, no you, just emotions.

      Does this make sense?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • 'Thoughts exist, they just aren't your thoughts. They just are. Same with emotions, no you, just emotions.'. Rikki, this exculpates from blame. So a dictator is not one because his actions are not his own? Moments of madness created by tyrants in this part of the world (where I live) are emotions based on illusion?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Well it's identification with thought, right?

      I could think 'I want to blow up my car'. Ok, just a thought. That's it. Its seen for just that.

      I'm not going to act on it though, few would. But if someone were truly identified with that, and didnt see it as it is, they WOULD blow up their car.

      Seem a little hard to believe?

      Hitler believed what he was doing was right, right? He believed he was doing the planet a service.

      We could think the same thoughts he did, but we'd see them as crazy, or at least untrue, right?

      Well he clearly didn't. He believed them to be true, and that belief provided the motivation to proceed in his vile plans.

      Thats clearly an extreme case, fortunately.

      But it's an example of believing in thoughts. Instead of seeing them as just thought.

      The same process is at work within the world, a belief in thought to be true. But when the thoughts aren't so crazy, aren't so obvious, they go unchecked, and get believed in.

      You have to look to see if what I'm saying is true, not intellectually try to understand or debate it.

      Looking is key, that 10 seconds of honesty is what cracks the shell of this and opens up true freedom.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • So, does this mean there are no evil actions? They all have their intent in belief. Moreover, right and wrong are relativistic?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Well, i'm not condoning their actions. I'm not excusing them at all. It was vile and horrific.

      I'm just explaining the process at work here.

      Things don't stop being true just because you don't want them to be. That's why it's Ruthless Truth, truth at any cost. Taking the blinkers off and taking a good look at what's going on here.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rick, I need to go again back to the hospital. I am so sorry. Please bear with me. I am really keen to continue. Let me answer briefly, I agree with all you say. I see it. My conundrum is that how does one deal with the relative world in this light? I see a great deal of hunger and pain/starvation and trauma here. Daily. It may be derived from tyrants and dictators but the victims are not responsible. how does one 'deal' with it? ruthlessly?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • No need to apologise my friend, I understand.

      Well we spread the truth on a global scale. What you mentioned are side effects of delusion. You're very right. Tyrants and dictators. Very powerfully identified with beliefs.

      One country entrenched in one stand point, another country in another.

      It's incredible that we live in this modern age of technology and development and people still don't have their basic needs met. But such is the nature of delusion. It makes no logical sense..

      But what you can do is firstly, see this full yourself. That's number one. Then, if you'd like to, help others see this simple truth.

      Now, let's get back to you my friend. Do you really see this, or are you agreeing with me?

      The difference is fundamental.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • I am back. 'Now, let's get back to you my friend. Do you really see this, or are you agreeing with me?'. I dont just simply agree, Rikki. I see it. i am blessed with a profession that allows this clarity possibly more than many others. However, the field is also so full of pain, Rikki. There remains a dissonance. Do you understand?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • It's incredible that we live in this modern age of technology and development and people still don't have their basic needs met. But such is the nature of delusion. It makes no logical sense.. - In this paragraph you have hit the core of my angst, as a physician. Whilst fully appreciating the core of your argument, I fail to appreciate why we still call it a 'delusion'.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Moreover, Rikki, following a full appreciation of this ruthless truth, how does one live? There appears (or not?) almost a sense of an existential crisis - almost a sense of nihilism. No?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Sorry for delay my friend.

      Ok. Pain clearly exists. We'd be crazy to state it doesn't. But how much of it is unnecessary?

      From 'local' suffering ie mental suffering, depression, anxiety etc all the way through the spectrum to global suffering and the repercussions of that.

      All we can really do right now, is look at what we do, and spread the message of truth. Seems to simple, but we must look at what we can do. Right now.

      ......


      It's a delusion because it's a belief in something that exists, but isn't truly who you are. If someone were to believe something external was who they are, like a cup, they'd clearly be delusional, or insane, right?

      But somehow it's accepted when it's internal. No one questions that. Partly because no one told them too.

      It's believing in something that isn't really them, but a mind made fiction. A phantom self. A lie.

      .....

      How do we live? I think priorities shift, you know. The delusional on a global scale is so powerfully evident. It's just insane. And the core reason for this is that people are controlled by a self that isn't really them. The lie.

      I don't want to lose focus too much here but take a quick look at greed for instance. Filling that 'hole' inside that never gets filled. More more more. Striving. Always the next thing, then the next.

      'If I have that car, or that house, then i'll be complete.' Then what do they do to meet those needs? Well if you own a corporation, then you'll do anything. Cut down the Rainforest, pollute the seas, anything.

      All in the service of being more complete. That carrot on a stick - fulfillment in material gains.

      If people were truly content, why would they bother?

      What's the very core of this? What's the ground floor reality that drives this behaviour? What lengths will people go to to be fulfilled?

      .....

      When you look for a self, what happens?

      I want you to describe it as much as possible so I can really see if you are liberated from this?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki - this is all true. And I truly see it. But what is the way forward in terms of daily life. How does one function? I have difficulty explaining this other than to say that if none of this existence 'really' matters, why bother?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Because you don't just become some zen like robot. Thoughts still arise, life happens, but that overwhelming importance has been taken.

      In one sense, the Earth could explode right now and the Universe wouldn't shed a tear. That's just the reality of the situation.

      That doesn't mean things don't matter per se. People suffer daily with things that have no grounding in reality. Destructive thoughts and emotions, it's crazy.

      It's all about waking up to the reality of life, and seeing what's true. That's all i've ever been interested in.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • 'When you look for a self, what happens? I want you to describe it as much as possible so I can really see if you are liberated from this?' When I look at myself, I see concepts (physician, cardiologists) etc that have been created by me in time. I see they are merely that. I see my emotions and daily grind are brain chemistry. I note that there is constant 'someone or thing' that watches all of this (but often believe this is merely a projection of my mind (rather than anything to do with a 'super-mind). As I keep looking, there are multiple masks that peel away, and keep doing so - its like a house with lots of rooms! As a doctor I have had to adopt these (a doctor, priest, philopher, counsellor etc)
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • 'That doesn't mean things don't matter per se. People suffer daily with things that have no grounding in reality. Destructive thoughts and emotions, it's crazy. ' So where do these destructive thoughts come from? Where does our motivation come from? Is it a personality we have made up?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Yes. It's something that has built over time, and never really been questioned because until now, no one really realised. Or looked.

      Enlightenment is largely overrated because it's essentially a stripping back of all the lies and getting BACK to the core of what's actually true.

      'It's not about becoming true, it's about un-becoming false so all that's left is truth.' - Jed McKenna

      Thoughts will still arise in the space. But they're seen for what they are, thoughts. Just thoughts. Not take over the 'host' and be seen as true. Not who you are.

      Where they come from? Well look at the body with no identity. Neurons fire off, electrical signals in the brain, who knows? I'm no neuro-scientist. All we know is that they DO arise, but they aren't who we are.

      That's the real difference here, seeing things for what they REALLY are, that's the core of this. The core of Truth.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki - this may sound very obtuse - but really IS/Are? What is the Core Truth?
  • Rikki Winchester
    23 hours ago
    Rikki Winchester
    • There is no self - it's a lie.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • So what is left?
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • I'm going to leave that to you to tell me when you see this. You say you do, but if you did, you wouldn't have to ask. See what I mean?

      Can you see this as true? Not intellectually understand, but see it happening, right now, in real life?

      Gotta run for a while my friend, look forward to your reply.
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • Rikki - there is nothing left. Its a void, sheer emptiness.
  • Rikki Winchester

    Rikki Winchester
    • Perfect answer..

      How long have you seen this?
  • Kiran Bhagat

    Kiran Bhagat
    • For a while. I simply stopped because it seemed there was 'nothing'. Not what I had expected! I thought 'if the was my original face' it was a tad dull. Sorry to say
  • Rikki Winchester
     
    Rikki Winchester
    • Haha, me too. A little anti-climatical right?

      Well go deeper into it. Stare into that void, keep pure focus on the space where a self should be. The void, yeah, that's going to deepen things.

      Really look at your thoughts, really see the nature of them. Deepen this, go fully into the void.

      It took me a while to deepen too.

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